科比维持高水平14个赛季，美球迷激辩：该不该把他排进历史前10？科比维持高水平14个赛季

科比维持高水平14个赛季，美球迷激辩：该不该把他排进历史前10？

When Kobe first led the league in scoring, he was younger than Porzingis is now. When Kobe last led the league in scoring, he was older than D-Wade is now.

科比生涯首次领衔得分榜时比现在的波尔津吉斯还要年轻，生涯最后一次领衔得分榜比现在的韦德还要年长。

I think that"s a pretty good indicator of Kobe"s insane longevity for a guard.

He first led the league in PPG average on December 3rd, 2000 (at 22 years and 102 days old, a month younger than current Porzingis)

He last led the league in PPG average on December 7th, 2014 (at 36 years and 106 days old, 4 months older than current D-Wade)

我觉得这个有趣的小数据可以说明科比作为一名后卫的职业生涯是多么持久、常青。

他第一次领衔得分榜是在2000年12月3日。（那时他22岁102天，比现在的波尔津吉斯还年轻一个月）

他最后一次领衔得分榜是在2014年12月7日（那时他36岁106天，比现在的韦德还年长4个月）

That"s a total of 14 years between the first and last time Kobe led the league in scoring (for context, Larry Bird"s entire career lasted 13 years, and Magic"s lasted 12 if you count out the "96 mini-comeback)

MJ is next in terms of gap, having first led the league in PPG on February 2nd, 1985 at 21 years and 354 days old.

He last led the league in PPG on the last day of the 1997-98 regular season (April 18th 1998), at 35 years and 60 days old. That"s a gap of 13 years and 72 days.

科比首次和末次领衔得分榜的时间跨度是14年（作为比较，拉里-伯德生涯总共13年。如果算上96年的短暂回归，魔术师-约翰逊生涯总共12年）

迈克尔-乔丹在这项榜单上排名第二，他首次领衔得分榜在1985年2月2日，当时他21岁354天。

他最后一次领衔得分榜是97-98赛季常规赛的最后一天（1998年4月18日），当时他35岁60天。乔丹首次和末次领衔得分榜的时间跨度是13年72天。

The crazy thing is MJ came close-ish to leading the league in PPG early in his first Wizards season, being tied (with Kobe) for 2nd behind Shaq up until December of 2001. That would have been a gap just short of 17 years between first and last leading the league.

Surprisingly, Kareem, king of both scoring and longevity, never led the league in PPG after November 26th 1976, only 6 years and 33 days after he first did so (October 10 1970)

最疯狂的是迈克尔-乔丹在他首个为奇才队出战的赛季中曾很接近领衔得分榜，那个赛季直到01年的12月他都和科比在得分榜第二位并驾齐驱，仅落后于沙奎尔-奥尼尔。如果当时他成功坐上得分榜首位，他的首次和末次领衔得分榜的时间跨度将接近17年。

但令人惊讶的是，NBA历史上的得分王和出勤王——“天勾”卡里姆·阿布杜尔-贾巴尔在1976年11月26日后就从未再领衔过得分榜了，他的首次和末次领衔得分榜的时间跨度仅为6年33天。（首次时间为1970年10月10日）

With no minimum game requirements, LeBron could break this record. He first led the league his sophomore year, albeit just 5 games into the season, on November 10th, 2004 at 19 years and 316 days (!!!). He would have to lead the league early in the 2018-19 season.

如果不限定最低数量的比赛场次，勒布朗-詹姆斯有可能打破科比的记录。他首次领衔得分榜是在生涯次年，赛季刚打完5场比赛，那是2004年11月10日，他年仅19岁316天（！！！）以他现在的状态，很有可能在18-19赛季初段依然能领衔得分榜。

With a requirement of say, 10 or 20 games into the season, then it would take a lot longer since LeBron didn"t lead the league in scoring again until 3 years later, meaning he"d have to lead the league early in the 2021-22 season, which seems possible but less likely.

如果要限定最低数量的比赛场次，比方说赛季已经打了10场或20场，那勒布朗-詹姆斯的首次领衔得分榜的日子得往后数3年。这意味着如果他要打破科比的记录，得在21-22赛季里再次领衔得分榜，这虽然有可能，但可能性也并不高了。

[–][TOR] Jonas ValanciunasDavidKirk2000 184 指標 5小時前

Wait, what? Kobe averaged 22.3 ppg in 35 games in 2013-14. This title makes it seem like he won the scoring title in that year.

等会，你说啥？科比在13-14赛季35场比赛后场均得分是22.3分。这标题说的好像他是那个赛季的得分王。

[–]RocketsDaroo425 151 指標 5小時前

He"s basically saying that at one point during that season he led the league in PPG, kinda dumb. It was both pretty early on also (both in December). I wouldn"t expect anyone to keep up their early PPG throughout the course of the season.

楼主说的是赛季中的某个时间点他的场均得分领衔全联盟，这种说法其实有点傻。科比的首次和末次领衔得分榜的时间点都在赛季初期（都是12月）。我不认为有哪个球员可以将赛季初的高场均得分延续到赛季末。

[–]Netsaydee123 106 指標 6小時前

OP has some weird criteria. Kobe did not lead the league in scoring at the end of his age 36 season (which Wade is in now).

楼主的这种标准很奇怪。科比在他36岁（韦德现在正是36岁）的赛季并不是得分王。

[–]Lakersporkupine100 133 指標 5小時前

I believe he"s saying that he was averaging the highest PPG at some point in the season. Not really weird, just not as impressive as the title made it seem.

我觉得楼主说的领衔得分榜就是他在赛季中的某个时间点是联盟里场均得分最高的球员。这标准也说不上奇怪，就是没有标题看的那么吸睛。

[–][deleted] 64 指標 3小時前

Who cares who"s leading the league in scoring through the first 20 games? Both of these data points are practically meaningless.

If a guy drops 50 in the first game of the season he"s technically leading in scoring.

谁会在意前二十场是谁领衔得分榜啊？这些数据都没啥意义的。如果一个球员在揭幕战上砍下50分那他肯定领衔得分榜啊。

[–]Lakersporkupine100 23 指標 3小時前

Right, that"s why I don"t think it"s nearly as impressive as the title made it seem

就是，这正是我为啥觉得这帖的内容不如标题吸睛。

[–][deleted] 55 指標 3小時前*

I"d go so far as to say the title is intentionally misleading.

楼主就是个标题党！

[–]Molholt 483 指標 6小時前

This also reminds me that Wade isn"t nearly as old as I imagine him to be.

这帖提醒了我韦德还没我印象中那么老嘛。

[–]Celticsfdahood 313 指標 6小時前

He is like 52 right?

你是觉得他有52岁了吗？

[–]RaptorsZeppelanoid 151 指標 5小時前

His knees are!

他的膝盖得有！

[–][NYK] Larry JohnsonRustedWheel 12 指標 5小時前*

Wade is old. 35 is very old for the NBA. There"s what, 10-15 older guys?

韦德是已经老了，35岁算是NBA的大龄球员了。现在整个联盟也就10-15人比他年纪大吧。

[–]Lakersbrandoi 1146 指標 6小時前

Man, if people can"t recognize Kobe"s longevity of his career, they"re fucking stupid to begin with.

大伙儿，如果人们不理解科比超长的职业生涯有多么难得，那他们就是石乐志。

[–]CBCN 582 指標 5小時前*

One of my favourite Kobe seasons was the 2012-2013 campaign. Dude was 33 years old, playing with a team that was performing below expectations (Dwight and Nash were banged up) and he literally willed them into the playoffs while dunking on young guys, hitting game winners, and going balls to the wall until his body literally gave out on him.

His (game winning tying) free throws with a ruptured Achilles is hands down one of the greatest moments in NBA history IMO.

其中一个我最爱的科比赛季是12-13赛季。那年他已经33岁，球队表现也低于预期（霍华德和纳什都有伤），但他几乎以一己之力带领球队进入季后赛，各种在年轻人头上扣篮，各种绝杀，为了争夺球权不惜飞身到替补席上直到身体已经不听使唤。我觉得他带着完全断裂的跟腱罚入奠定胜利的罚球的时刻是NBA历史上最高光的时刻之一。

[–]Lakersxkittenpuncher 223 指標 5小時前

He was 33 years old, but that"s like 38 in Kobe years. Just a pile of fucking injuries plus playing under D"Antoni"s system with heavy usage. He"s bound to fucking break down.

那年他已经33岁，但身体已经像38岁时的他。满身的伤病还有在德安东尼体系下的高使用率，身体肯定吃不消的。

[–]RaptorsO-G-Anunoby 80 指標 5小時前

How are you gonna blame Dantoni for Kobes minutes when Harden is averaging 35.9MPG now and 36mpg last year, Nash averaging 35 and even Stoudemire averaging around 33-35.

Kobe wasn"t gonna listen to anyone. He wanted to play and he wasn"t going to sit while his team loses.

你怎么能把科比场均出场时间长归咎于德安东尼呢？哈登这个赛季场均35.9分钟，上赛季是36分钟。太阳时期的纳什是35分钟，小斯大概在33-35分钟。主要是科比在球队落后的时候是不会愿意坐在板凳席上休息的，这种情况下他不会听任何人劝说。

[–]RaptorsVinceJumpmanCarter 95 指標 5小時前

I don"t think D"Antoni had a say in the matter.

我也认为科比的伤不应该归咎于德安东尼。

[–]sadsapman 221 指標 5小時前

D’Antoni tried managing his minutes and Kobe would just get up and sub himself in.

德安东尼曾尝试控制科比的出场时间，但科比会径自把自己换上场打球。

[–]LakersTheBronJamesHarden 170 指標 5小時前

Thibodeau: I like that

锡伯杜：我喜欢这种球员。

[–]LakersDM_ME_UR_SOUL 15 指標 4小時前

Well that obviously shows that Kobe had no respect for D"Antoni. Not surprising since he didn"t really try to defend Kobe from subbing himself in.

好吧，这显然说明了科比不太尊重德安东尼。这也不意外，毕竟他没有尝试阻止科比径自把自己换上场。

[–][BOS] Rajon RondoYoungM0ney 479 指標 6小時前

but he was no efficiency so HE SUCKS

-r/nba, probably

凯尔特人球迷：论坛里会说：“但科比的效率值太低了，他球打得不行。”

[–][GSW] Monta EllisFUCK_STEPHEN_A_SMITH 138 指標 6小時前

Flair doesnt check out

勇士球迷：看了眼你的主队，这是太阳打西边出来了？

[–][BOS] Rajon RondoYoungM0ney 144 指標 6小時前

don"t you know about Celtics Legend Kobe Bryant?

凯尔特人球迷：你不认识凯尔特人传奇科比-布莱恩特吗？

[–][NYK] Larry JohnsonRustedWheel 74 指標 6小時前

He was shooting under 40% when leading the league in scoring the second time OP is talking about. He was shooting lower than Westbrook is shooting this year.

科比在楼主说的他最后一次领衔得分榜时投篮命中率不到40%，比今年的威斯布鲁克还要低啊。

[–][MIA] LeBron Jamesyaboybaconandlettuce 185 指標 6小時前

He"s in the top 10 all timers, idgaf what anyone says.

热火+詹姆斯球迷：不管你们怎么说，科比就是历史前十的球星。

[–][OKC] Russell WestbrookAnti_Thon 174 指標 6小時前

I remember when he won his 5th title and media members said he was a top 5 player. Hell, a bunch of current players say he’s top 5 but this sub barely has them in their top 10.

我记得在科比赢得第5冠的时候所有人都说他是历史前五的球星。一堆现在的球员也说他是历史前五，但特么就在这个论坛他被降到了历史前十了。

[–][MIA] LeBron Jamesyaboybaconandlettuce 19 指標 9小時前

I have Kobe over Hakeem, Bird, Magic. Kill me.

我把科比排在奥拉朱旺、拉里-伯德和魔术师-约翰逊前面，来咬我啊。

[–]LakersBall_Is_Life_92 16 指標 8小時前

When did this sub decide that Duncan was a better player then Kobe? Back when Kobe got hi 5th ring there was talk about Kobe possibly passing Jordan as the GOAT. But now that he"s retired he"s not even top 10? This sub is weird.

湖人球迷：啥时候开始这个论坛把邓肯排在科比前面了？回到科比刚拿到第5冠的时候，这里讨论的是科比超越乔丹成为历史最佳的可能性。但现在他退役之后却排不进历史前十？这破论坛在逗我。

[–]softnmushy 21 指標 7小時前

Yeah, the Kobe v Duncan dynamic has been fascinating to watch. Back when the Spurs were battling the Lakers every year in the playoffs, pretty much everyone agreed Kobe was way better. Duncan was hugely underrated. But as time passed, and advanced stats and nuance became a little more appreciated, Duncan became far more appreciated. He might even be overrated at this point.

就是。看着多年来人们争论科比和邓肯谁是更好的球员真有意思。过去在马刺和湖人在季后赛多年缠斗的时候，几乎所有人都认为科比是更好的球员，那时候的邓肯被大大的低估了。时光荏苒，在高阶数据盛行的今天，邓肯获得的赞誉更多了，多的有点到了被高估的程度了。

[–]mangotictacs 46 指標 6小時前

It’s stupid lol - it’s not an insult to say he’s not top 10 if the 10 guys better than you are Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Russell, Bird, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, MJ and LeBron.

层主这逻辑有点蠢，如果历史前十是奥拉朱旺、邓肯、奥尼尔、比尔-拉塞尔、拉里-伯德、魔术师-约翰逊、张伯伦、贾巴尔、乔丹和詹姆斯的话，说科比不是历史前十也不算是侮辱他吧？

[–]CavaliersTheBigEgg23 14 指標 5小時前

There"s a number of people that have a claim. I just think it"s stupid to phrase something like that, because it automatically discredits a reasonable opinion. It"s perfectly reasonable to not have him in the top 10 if you have worthy players over him. Guys who I"d say have strong arguments over him include (in no specific order);

MJ, Lbj, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Bird, Duncan, Russell, Hakeem, Wilt. That"s 10 that I"d probably have higher than him. Others that have lesser claims, but still claims (IMO): Oscar Rob., Erving, Jerry West.

说实话有一堆人排着队等着进历史前十呢，层主说的那种话我是不赞同，一个合理的观点不应该被直接否定。如果一个球迷能有理有据地列出比科比更配得上历史前十的球员，那说科比不是历史前十也根本算不上愚蠢的观点。也数出10个值得排在他前面的球员。这里包括（不分先后顺序）乔丹、詹姆斯、魔术师-约翰逊、贾巴尔、奥尼尔、拉里-伯德、邓肯、比尔-拉塞尔、奥拉朱旺、张伯伦。这10个是我认为历史地位在科比之前的人，另外几位我认为底气可能没这十位那么足，但排在科比之前的还是有道理的：奥斯卡-罗伯特森、朱利叶斯-欧文和杰里-韦斯特。

So basically.... I have Kobe right outside of top 10, at 11. Maybe we"re splitting hairs here, but I think it"s perfectly reasonable to have Kobe in the 11-14 range. And this doesn"t include the two guys who may be able to make claims at top 10 ever when they"re done (Curry/KD).

所以总的来说，我把科比排除在历史前十之外，排在第十一左右。可能我们对于历史排名总是过于斤斤计较，但我觉得把科比排在11-14位是绝对有道理的。而且这个还没包括库里和杜兰特这两位以后有望跻身历史前十的球员。

[–][LAL] Brandon Ingramsweetwattah 42 指標 5小時前

Because there are a lot of strange hang ups that people have in here with regards to efficiency. People don"t care seem to care you get the job done or not, they care if you"re putting out an efficient stat line.

湖人球迷：现在人们睁眼闭眼都是在讨论效率效率效率，对效率值的执着有点“不可理喻”了。好像人们根本不关心是否赢球，只是关心你拿到什么数据，效率值高不高。

[–]pope-hitler 46 指標 4小時前

Caring about being efficient is not a “strange hang up”. And I don’t know why I keep seeing that phrase. Like hey Kobe is one of the greatest of all time and what a lot of people don’t consider is his amazing defense. If anything it’s the defensive prowess combined with is amazing scoring that makes him one of the best ever. However you have to look at both strength and weakness when discussing a player, which is not a “strange hang up”. He was not very efficient. So when comparing him to the best players ever you have to look at each players weaknesses because they are so great you have to differentiate one way or another. And that’s one thing against him and it’s not a small thing but can definitely be overstated

关心高阶数据并不是“不可理喻”。我不懂为啥经常看见这个词。我举双手赞同科比是历史上最佳球员之一，而且很多人还忽略了他的防守能力。科比超强的得分能力和强悍的防守能力融于一体，造就了他的伟大。但你在谈论一名球员的时候必须同时讨论他的优缺点，这并非“不可理喻”。科比确实不是一位效率值很高的球员。所以当你在把科比和其他历史最佳球员比较的时候也得把缺点拿出来比较，因为他们都太强了，所以你得方方面面地比较才能分出高低。效率值低确实是科比的一个弱点，这并不是一件小事，但是在讨论的时候确实有可能言过其实。

[–]EricHangingOut 70 指標 7小時前

But people here tend to not take efficiency in context, which is weird considering a lot of people here are pretty familiar with advanced stats.

但这论坛并没有把他的效率值放到当时的时代环境里去比较，这就有点奇怪了，毕竟论坛里大部分人谈论起高阶数据都很溜。

Kobe was very efficient compared to guards/wings of his era. That"s just the way basketball was played and no one gave a fuck about their efficiency. You contrast that with today, when players like KD and LeBron are known to care deeply about their efficiency and FG%. You really think if Kobe cared about having the highest possible efficiency, he wouldn"t have catered his game to that?

对比起同时代的后卫/侧翼球员，科比的效率值是相当高的。那时代就是这么打球，没人关注效率值。和今天相比，众所周知，像杜兰特和詹姆斯这样的球员在意自己的效率值和投篮命中率。你觉得如果科比真的在意他的效率值，他不会转型到更有效率的打法吗？

People discount the volume between efficiency and volume. Kobe shot 45.5% in his 15-year prime. That"s pretty fucking good when putting up over 20 shots per game. The per-36 generation assumes you can just double your shot attempts and maintain the same efficiency. That"s not the way it works. His efficiency was pretty remarkable considering the load of the offense he carried and the level of difficulty of the shots he took. Of course, you can say he should"ve taken 2-3 fewer stupid shots per game, but that"s really the only knock you can have on his game.

人们在效率值和量之间总会低估量的作用。科比在他15年的巅峰期内投篮命中率达到45.5%，这对每场投篮超过20次来说是非常高的命中率了。把每36分钟数据当宝贝一样引用的新一代球迷觉得一个球员能在出手数加倍的情况下还能保持同样的效率值，但这是不存在的。考虑到科比在进攻端承担的重担和那些投篮的难度，他的命中率可以说很惊艳了。当然，你可以说他本可以每场少出手2-3个愚蠢的强投，但这也是你唯一能诟病他的点了。

When it comes to TS%, EFG%, people neglect that for the majority of Kobe"s career, the three point shot was not a main-stay of the game. Becoming a great three point shooter was never a primary focus of his and that"s going to knock him on the efficiency front compared to today"s wings.

当谈到真实命中率，有效命中率，人们忽略了在科比打球的时候，三分还不是一项主要的得分手段。成为一名优秀的三分手并不是他的主要关注点，这使得他效率值比不上现在的侧翼球员。

Basically, it is a strange hang up, because Kobe"s "efficiency" was never a problem during his prime in the context of winning, except for maybe the 2003-2004 season, which was a very strange outlier of a season for many reasons, including fit, aging roster, Kobe-Shaq feud hitting apex, and of course the very serious legal issues.

总的来说，这是有点“不可理喻”，因为科比的效率值问题从来不是他巅峰时期影响他赢球的因素，除了在03-04赛季的时候。但那时也是有一系列的场外因素影响，包括身材管理、老化的阵容、科鲨矛盾激化，当然还有鹰郡事件。

[–]Knicksgtclutch 15 指標 8小時前

Strange hangups? There"s nothing strange about valuing efficiency. People care about how much you help your team win. Surely you can understand that putting out an efficient stat line matters a whole fucking lot when it comes to helping your team win. There"s nothing strange about the logic that missing shots=bad. That"s why people care about an efficient stat line. Kobe was a great player. I won"t argue against that. But dismissing valid arguments about Kobe"s efficiency is stupid.

“不可理喻”？重视效率就没有“不可理喻”这一说。人们关心一个球员做了多少去帮助他的的球队获胜。你肯定能明白有效率地去拿下数据是帮助球队获胜的重要方式。【投丢了球=糟糕】这逻辑没毛病啊。这正是人们关心效率值的原因。科比是个伟大的球员，毋庸置疑，但因此拒绝正常讨论他的效率问题就很蠢了。